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THE SEARCH BAR

Are there any health benefits to wine?

| 27 minutes | Media Contact: University Communications

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Summary

Is cheap wine worse than expensive wine? And are there any health benefits to drinking wine? 

Summary 

In this episode of The Search Bar, host Adam Sparkes interviews Jeff Fisher, director of the Allen Foundation Culinary Nutrition Center at Central Michigan University, about all things wine. They discuss what makes a good wine, the price discrepancy between cheap and expensive wines, the importance of terroir in wine production, and the different factors that affect the price of wine. They also talk about the process of tasting and identifying wines, the aging potential of different wines, and the regional wine-growing regions in the US. They end the conversation by discussing the health benefits of wine, the concept of drinking in moderation and the overall experience of enjoying wine. 

Transcript

Chapters 

Introduction

Jeff: There's a chemical, they've done studies, it's called resveratrol that can actually help to lower your blood pressure. It can also contribute to longevity, and I think that's part of the, “I have a glass or two, and it makes me feel good.” And it takes away the stress out of the body. Stress is very hard on your health. Because it has these beneficial properties, I think doctors are still a little hesitant to prescribe it because of the potential for abuse and not drinking in moderation, and that in and of itself can have adverse health effects. 

Adam: Is cheap wine worse than expensive wine? And does drinking wine really have health benefits? Welcome to The Search Bar. I'm your host, Adam Sparkes, and on today's episode, we're talking about all things wine with Jeff Fisher, director of the Allen Foundation Culinary Nutrition Center at Central Michigan University. Well, Jeff, I'm really excited to talk about something that will match your sweater and our backgrounds, which is wine. To you, Jeff, what makes a wine a good wine? 

What makes a good wine?

Jeff: Adam, a good wine is a wine that has a balance of flavors: a little bit of acidity, alcohol, as well as a good aroma or bouquet, as they say. So, a nice balance across those different factors. 

Adam: Do you have a favorite? Is there something out there that you really like? 

Jeff: I like all wines. 

Adam: Same. 

Jeff: Red wine in the winter, white wine in the summer, rosé all day. Lately, I've been enjoying a lot of Pinot Noir. Just seems to be a nice, easy, drinkable wine. You know, wine is, generally speaking, it's meant to be enjoyed with food because the two, kind of, compliment each other. But Pinot Noir is one of those wines that’s pretty easy to drink by itself as well. 

What's the difference between cheap wine and expensive wine?

Adam: What's with the price discrepancy? Wine is wild. If you're new to it, you can get that ‘five buck chuck’ or probably at $6 or $7 now, or $8, but there's that $10-ish bottle of wine and then there's like name your price for the limit. It gets really crazy really fast. 

Jeff: Yeah, well, times are tough because I remember it as ‘two buck chuck’. But yeah, you can find good bottles of wine, $10, $20, there's no doubt about that. But the expensive wines, they come down to — they'll come from the famous wineries. They usually have a really good terroir. It used to be some prehistoric lake bed, and it's full of nutrients, and the wines just thrive in these areas. Like the chateaus in southeast France. They have a long history of wine making, so their techniques are excellent. They might be a little more meticulous when they're picking the grapes. They might actually pick through the bunches and only get the ripe grapes [instead of] sort of throwing the whole bunch in there and just mashing it all together. So they're a little more detail oriented. 

Adam: They stomp them with their feet still. 

Jeff: Yep. Some wineries still do. Absolutely. Some are mechanized. And so, those labor-intensive wineries are going to — that's going to cost a lot more money. I'll give you an example. In Australia, it's a new world wine growing region. When they first planted grapes there, they brought in the Caterpillars, they smoothed out the plains, they planted them, and now they can bring mechanical harvesters in, and they can grow large amounts of grapes and make large quantities of wine for low prices. And it's good wine. Compare that to some of the old regions of Germany and Italy where they literally repelled down the side of the mountain to pick the grapes. It's not [a] very efficient method of harvesting, and so those all contribute to the price, and, of course, supply and demand. 

Adam: In terms of things that add expense to wine — I mean, part of that, I guess, is… it's the Disney World effect. It's the experience that I'm buying into, a little bit, right? Does harvesting the wine off the side of a cliff — it's romantic — but does it guarantee you that you're going to enjoy the taste of the wine any more than the big factory-farmed one from Australia? 

Jeff: Not at all, not at all. Yeah, there is the experience, the prestige of having that expensive bottle, letting people see you drink it. I don’t know if you remember MTV cribs, right? You know you made it when you got a couple bottles of Cristal in the refrigerator. It's a prestige symbol. Supply and demand has a big impact, especially some of the Asian countries. Their economies are booming. They've really developed a taste for French wines. There's a limited supply more demand, and that drives up the prices. And so, there's a lot of different factors that can affect the price of wine. We have all these different rating systems available. You go to the store, people are like, "Ooh, it got 89 points. It must be good." Where we really want people to learn how to taste and enjoy wine and make their own decision as to what they enjoy.

How can I begin to enjoy and appreciate wine?

Adam: When it comes to trying to taste wine or identify wines, what are the first steps? What are some things you should know that will help you have a better experience if you're trying to explore wine as a recreation? 

Jeff: We teach, in the introduction to wine course here on campus, we teach students about the deductive tasting method. We get them to walk by and, with conscious effort, to think about what they're tasting in terms of acidity, sweetness, minerality, and things like that. And so, it doesn't become — it's not drinking wine, but it's tasting wine, doing it consciously. They record, they write notes, they make opinions on the wine itself. So, that's one of the first steps. And then we’ll take students — we'll start in a region like California, and we'll look at some of the famous grape varietals in California. And then we want to introduce them to those different grape varieties, the specific grapes. You know, your Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Noir, Chardonnay. These are actually the names of the grapes used to make those wines. And then from there we'll go out and we'll go to different regions, maybe around the US. Or we'll go over to Europe, spend a couple of weeks in France, Germany, Italy, all these famous wine growing regions. And we learn about all the different grape varieties that are available in these different countries. And, of course, each country is going to impart their own different characteristics into the wines from what's called terroir, the impact of the climate, the soil, topography, things like that. 

Adam: You must hate teaching this class. 

Jeff: Well, it's the most fun I've ever had. I think the students as well. But I get a little nervous serving them alcohol on campus. 

Adam: Again, that experience, and that shared experience, when you're putting something… because wine is, it's definitely, I think, one of those things that falls into that category of you acquire tastes. Because you were talking about learning to taste things, and it, kind of, struck me in my head, like when you're growing up, remember the first time you try coffee or the first time you sip any kind of alcohol, and you go [mimics spitting out a drink]  

Jeff: “That’s terrible.” 

Adam: “This is horrible.” As you're drinking wine, what are the things you're looking for and how do you think people grow to appreciate it? 

Jeff: Well, it's interesting. I remember in the first week I asked the class, “What kind of wines do you like?” Predominantly, everyone was like, “I like sweet wines.” And I think beginner wine drinkers tend to gravitate towards those wines. Wine was really intended to be consumed with food. So, if somebody tastes a Cabernet Sauvignon that's full of tannins, it's very dry, it makes them pucker, they're like, "Oh my god, this just is terrible." But if they learn to pair that Cabernet Sauvignon with a nice steak, maybe a New York strip or a ribeye, [something that] has a lot of fat on it, well, now they have those tannins [and] that dryness are going to balance the fattiness of the food, and together they kind of create something more than the sum of their individual parts. So, wine was really intended to be enjoyed with food. And so, I think a lot of people drink wine like they're having a beer or a cocktail, but wine's really better to be enjoyed with food, and I think that changes the experience for them. 

Adam: So, what you want to do is figure out what goes with Lucky Charms and then you're set for 7 a.m. 

Jeff: Mimosa. 

Adam: Right.

What makes wine sweet or dry and how does that affect the taste?

Adam: Give me — I think this is one of the biggest differentiators that people will hear when they first hear people talk about wine: the difference between sweet and dry. Which, linguistically, are not opposite from one another, but I think in the wine world they sort of are, right? 

Jeff: Yeah. It's related to the amount of residual sugar left in the wine after fermentation is ceased. Sometimes they even do a process called chaptalization where they add sugar to the wine to cause either a second fermentation process or to sweeten the wine, sort of, artificially, if you will. But generally speaking, the sweet and dry is the amount of residual sugar left in it. So, a dry wine should be nice and crisp. It should finish crisp on the palette where the sweetness — you're going to have a lingering sweet flavor on the tip of your tongue. 

Adam: For me, learning what that dry feeling was when you had it was kind of an interesting experience because, as I was getting instruction on how to taste wine — and again, don't take my advice, I'm not very good at this — but I started to go, "Wow, you know what? I think I actually really like dry wine." I really prefer a drier wine. And, probably, going into that, I would've misidentified the things that I liked about wine as sweet, when really it was more about other flavor notes that were in there that I was thinking are sweet. As far as that finish, it was dryness for me. 

Jeff: Okay. Well, one of the exercises I tell my students to do when we learn about acidity is take five Dixie Cups, fill them with water, in the first one put one squeeze of lemon, [then] put two squeezes of lemon, then three, then four, then five, and then you can notice the progression of acidity and begin to identify that on your palette. Most of us are familiar with sweet flavors, we’re accustomed to those since childhood, and so those are pretty easy to identify. 

Adam: That's really cool advice. I haven’t heard that one before. 

What other factors affect the flavor profile of a wine?

Adam: Okay, so tell me what a tannin is because I still don't think I fully understand this. I know it kind of gums into that dry and sweet conversation. 

Jeff: Sure. Well, tannins, they come from the grape seeds and the grape skins. They're very astringent in flavor. They're what makes your mouth pucker. Tannins are also really important for red wines and the aging process. Wine, red wine that has a lot of tannins will age for a longer period of time, so it kind of acts as a preservative, if you will. 

Adam: This is another one that I think people hang up on, or at least I know I used to hang up on. So, let my own ignorance lead the conversation for those who might be there. It's not just that the older the wine is, the better it gets, right? Different wines have different sweet spots. Can you talk about that a little bit? 

Jeff: Sure, I’ve got a great example. My brother was in California in 2002. He's like, “What kind of wine should I buy?” And I said, “Well, buy something that ages well.” So, we picked up three bottles of red Zinfandel and we had them down in my parents' cellar, and when we moved them out of their house, they said, “Hey, these bottles have been sitting down here for…,” I think at that point they'd been down there for 10, 15 years. I had just completed an introductory sommelier course and I said, “Let's taste one of those.” And when we opened it up, it was delicious. It had these well-developed flavors, like jammy, deep, rich berry fruits. And they were really nice. We're like, “Wow, that was really great.” So, fast forward, another 10 years went by, and we just opened bottle number two, and all of a sudden, it's starting to be a little more on the acidic, vinegary side, and I'm thinking… So I did a little — went to Google and researched it and Zinfandels, they age for about 15 years and then they start to decline in quality. So, each varietal is going to have different parameters and how long you can age it. I think a Cabernet Sauvignon is one of the best wines for aging long periods of time. 

How long should you age a bottle of wine?

Adam: Because I think there's kind of this misnomer, at least there was in my head, where it's like, “Man, if it can sit around for a hundred years, it gets more special.” But really, it might just be salad dressing by then, right? 

Jeff: It very much could be. And [when] they're opening it, it's more than just the taste of the wine at that point. It's, "Hey, I ordered a hundred-year bottle of wine at the restaurant" and what have you. Now, I remember, whenever I was working at a fine dining restaurant and our wine steward had come back in the kitchen and said a customer had ordered this bottle of Louis Latour from the 1950s. And I don't know what the price on the bottle was, but he kind of brought back the sludge in the bottom and he decanted it to remove the sediment, and he gave us a taste. And I had never tasted a wine like that before. Chocolate, tobacco, leather; flavors I never knew could even exist in a bottle of grape juice. 

Adam: So, you shouldn't feel bad about going to the store and getting a bottle of something that's 2018 or 2020. It's probably quite good. I mean, it's meant to be ready to drink most of the time. 

Jeff: That’s interesting. It's a great point you brought up because a lot of the wines that are produced today are with the intention that they'll be consumed within three to five years. Back in the old days, or especially in Europe, people would buy large quantities of wine and put it in their wine cellar with the expectation that they were going to age it for 5, 10, 15 years before they consume it. But today's consumer wants everything convenient and they want it now. And so, the producers have really kind of dialed the wines towards consumption a year or two after they're bottled.

What states have the best wine-growing regions? How does Michigan compare?

Adam: Do you guys get into some of the regional stuff we have here in Michigan? There's a lot of the cherry wine and stuff that comes out of Michigan's Northwest. 

Jeff: Yeah, we do. We have a very good wine-growing region in Michigan. Now, because of the cold climate, we tend to focus on the sweeter wines, the Rieslings, but we have some very good quality wines. And you'll have your fruit wines, the cherry wines, they could be very good as well, but Michigan does a really good job. And another region of the country you might not think of is a wine-growing region is New York state. They actually have a pretty good-sized wine-growing region. And there's little pockets of wine all over the country, but the big ones are California, Oregon, Washington. 

Why does wine vary in taste so much?

Adam: I want to go back and just talk a little bit about some tips in the grocery store. If I'm not going to preserve things, or I'm not going to pickle things, or I'm not really going to do that in-season shopping — which I think everyone should try, and you probably have a farmer's market that you have access to. Most places will at least have that nearby. But if you're just going to the grocery store, what are some other ways to kind of save a little bit of money and make that healthy eating more efficient? 

Adam: I don't put a lot of thought and effort into it, but over the last five or six years, I've come to appreciate opening a new bottle of wine when someone brings over the house and just go, "Oh man, we're about to have a little adventure." Because you really don't know what you're going to get, right? 

Jeff: It is, especially, you know, you go to the store and you — say you're going to go big, you maybe slap down $30 or more on a bottle, and you don't know. It is an adventure, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Because even the best wines I've had — I remember a couple winters ago, I left a nice pinot noir in the car and the temperatures got down cold enough, turned it to vinegar overnight. And the same thing can happen in the hot summer sun. It can turn a good wine really quickly. So, depending on how that wine was transported and cared for and handled along the way from the producer to the point of sale, then all that can happen. 

Adam: Yeah, I think that's a really good point that we should bring up. If you're kind of going to begin a wine journey, it's not the most shelf-stable stuff, really. There's a lot that you could be doing wrong. I think, in terms of if it's getting sunlight on it, which is any beverage if you leave it in the sun long enough. But what temperature you're keeping it at. What's ideal for most wine? Is there a middle ground for how you keep yours? 

Jeff: Specific temperatures? I mean, I usually just keep mine in a cool spot, in the closet or cabinet, but you can have a wine refrigerator to keep it at the optimal temperature. White wine's usually kept a little bit colder than reds, and you can do it that way. When we had the class, I'd refrigerate the wines and pull them out maybe an hour or two before we're going to serve, so they come up to the right temperature and just try to take my best shot. But I did want to mention earlier, you'd kind of mentioned how wine can have all this mystique and what have you around it, but really at the end of the day, it's just grape juice, right? Or, one of my students said, as we were learning about terroir and the influence of soil and everything, it's just groundwater that the vines are soaking up and turn them into grapes, and that's all it is. That comment makes me think of — in the last 10 years or so, they learned how to cultivate morels under control condition. And I've purchased some of these… well, they just taste like the peat that you'd buy at Home Depot. It has that artificial flavor, whereas when you pick a morel in the woods, you have all the decaying leaves and wood and bugs and all that nature and fresh air, and it imparts some really nice characteristics to the wine. 

Adam: Yeah, I have some morel hunters in my family. I'm glad they do it because I don’t have the patience. And I'm also afraid, even when I see — [do you] ever just see something that's clearly a morel, and you're like, “Ooh…mmm?” You're probably better at identifying mushrooms than I am. 

Jeff: I can identify a morel, but I couldn't find one to save my life. 

Adam: I've thought I've stumbled across them a few times. But yeah, I think that's a fun way to think about that wine too, is that it's really that life journey. The way we think about when you eat game animals, there's a ‘gaminess’, and really all gaminess usually means is it's eating wild forage. That's kind of a term that, like, deer is more ‘gamey’ than beef. That's just because that deer didn't have a monolithic diet its entire life, which the cow you ate probably did. I'm sure if cows were wild grazed, they would taste a lot different than what we're used to a hamburger tasting like. Grapes, I guess, are the same. Grapes are little cows is what I'm trying to say. 

Jeff: Yeah. Well, it's all about that soil and the climate; the amount of rain they get, the amount of sunshine, whether they have a breeze off the ocean or if they're down in a valley. Those all — that impacts the flavor. 

How do I find a wine that I like?

Adam: If you could recommend two wines for people to try, and to try with something that they're likely to be eating, what would you do? Like, if you were going to turn somebody on to like, "Hey, you should get this and this, and then you can have this one with chicken or this one with beef,” or however, or fish, or however you want to do it. What would your go-tos be? 

Jeff: I mean, Champagne's one of the easiest wines, if you like bubbly wine. I think it's one of the most easiest to drink, and it goes well with a lot of different foods. Let's see. For the reds, I would probably recommend a Pinot Noir. I'd stay away from your Cabernets that first time out because... 

Adam: [gasps] I like Cabernet. 

Jeff: Well, I think it's not your first glass of wine, Adam.  

Adam: No.  

Jeff: Again, people tend to be a little more on the sweeter side, so maybe go with the Chardonnay or a sweeter Riesling, or a late harvest Riesling where they let those grapes resinate on the vine and it really intensifies the sugar in the wine. But those are some pretty easy-drinking wines. And of course, everyone's different. Everyone has individual pallets, and it's really tasting a lot of wines to really find out what you like. 

Which wines pair well with different foods?

Adam: I'm going to name something that I'm going to have for dinner, I want you to pair me a wine.  

Jeff: Okay.  

Adam: All right? There's no wrong answer. There's no wrong answers here. Nobody on the internet judge Jeff Fisher. All right? I'll leave his email if you want to... 

Jeff: Thanks. 

Adam: Okay. I'm going to start classical, and I'll get a couple that are slightly more absurd. Okay? I'm having a filet, right? Steak filet. What's my wine? 

Jeff: Mad Dog 20/20. 

Adam: Strawberry flavor? 

Jeff: Oh, I think I'd go with the Cabernet, for sure. That's an easy one. 

Adam: I knew I was getting a cab on that. That was the only one I was sure on. Okay, salmon. 

Jeff: Salmon. I think I'm going — you could go with a light red, maybe a Pinot Noir, but I'd have a tendency maybe to go to a white wine with something a little bit drier. Salmon's a little fatty. It's a fatty fish, so you want something drier to cut it. So maybe, like a Sauvignon Blanc would do nicely. 

Adam: That sounds good. It would look nice next to it on the table, too. 

Jeff: Absolutely. 

Adam: Alright. Grilled chicken. 

Jeff: Grilled chicken. Another kind of middle-of-the-road white meat. Again, I'd probably stick with the white wine on that one. I'm going to go with the Chardonnay on the grilled chicken. 

Adam: Alright, here's the curve ball on the chicken. Fried chicken, it's a little spicy. 

Jeff: Fried chicken, spiciness. Okay, well then, I’m going to — you can do a lot with flavors. You can balance and contrast them, or you can, kind of, match them. So I'm going to go with the spicy Malbec to match the spiciness of that fried chicken. 

Adam: We're getting really specific now. I like that, though. That's a good one to try. Okay, ready? I'm going to give you one more. All right? The hamburger, the American hamburger. I'm not having a beer, I'm having a glass of wine. 

Jeff: Well, I was going to say the champagne of beers. 

Adam: Little High Life? 

Jeff: You got to stick — I'm sticking with the reds because of the fattiness of the hamburger. I'd go back to the Cabernet, I think. 

Adam: Alright. And I lied, we're going to do one more. 

Jeff: Oh, here we go. 

Adam: I'm doing tacos. It's taco night. 

Jeff: Tequila! 

Adam: Yeah, right? The cocktail episode will be next year, everybody. 

Jeff: Alright, so, are these ground beef tacos, or what kind of tacos? 

Adam: Yeah, let's go for like a carne asada kind of deal. 

Jeff: Carne asada. Let's mix it up. How about a Shiraz? 

Adam: Oh, I like a Shiraz. 

Jeff: Yeah, that'd go nice. It's got a little zip to it, a little spiciness as well. So, I think it'd go well with the Mexican flavor profile. 

Adam: And, you know what? And you heard him earlier: Lucky Charms you just have with the mimosa and you're good to go. I think we just covered all the food groups.

How can I enjoy wine in moderation? And are there any health benefits?

Adam: We've been talking a lot about drinking wine and how fun it is. I want to talk a little bit about the health of alcohol and, kind of, what moderation looks like to you. When we first started talking about this, I was like — I think I'd mentioned, either before recording, or right when… I don't recall — that wine's a lot of fun, and if you have two glasses in a row, you feel great, too, which, I think — I mean, when we talk about consuming alcoholic, there's no doubt that we call them libations for a reason. It loosens you up and makes you feel better. It does something to your brain when you drink alcohol. But, I guess, what is drinking in moderation? What should people be aware of when they're consuming wine, from a health standpoint? 

Jeff: Defining moderation, I think they recommend one glass for women, two glass [for men] for wine. Again, there's the prejudice between the genders. 

Adam: Which is probably more to do with body size. 

Jeff: Body size, yeah, really. But moderate wine consumption is that just one to two glasses a day. 

Adam: Yeah. 

Jeff: Now, the health benefits. You know, red wine is a little bit healthier than white wine. It contains a lot of antioxidants. There's a chemical, they've done studies, it's called resveratrol that can actually help to lower your blood pressure and can also contribute to longevity. And, I think, that's part of the, “I have a glass or two and it makes me feel good.” Well, and it takes the way the stress out of the body. Stress is very hard on your health. And so, I think the fact that wine helps you relax is going to help your blood pressure and some other things, in addition to the antioxidants that help to keep your veins clean and your arteries, and free from plaque. 

Adam: Yeah, if you're having a healthy engagement with something like that, your mental health goes a long way, right, too. I mean, I think one of the materials that producer Aaron sent to me before we were doing this, the commentary was kind of like, “Yeah, exercise would also decrease your stress, but it might not be as fun[as] to sit down across from…” You can have that conversation and a glass of wine, or listen to music and have a glass of wine. And I feel like I keep coming back to this idea that there's an experience that you're also having with it that might be as beneficial as the nutrients that are in the wine. 

Jeff: Sure, sure. And so, wine is — because it has these beneficial properties, I think doctors are still a little hesitant to prescribe it because of the potential for abuse and not drinking in moderation. And that in and of itself can have adverse health effects. So, there are some positive aspects to drinking wine, but I think, like you say, it all comes down to moderation. And today we're actually seeing the trend away from alcohol. There's companies that are developing non-alcoholic spirits that have the same burn as a glass of whiskey to have that same experience, but they don't contain any alcohol. People are really getting on that fitness and health craze, and they're finding less room for alcohol in their lifestyles.

Parting advice and conclusion

Adam: Do you have any other parting wisdom on wine, or anything you'd like to leave people with, or...? 

Jeff: You mentioned the experience of drinking wine, and I think that's part of it. We talked a little bit about the journey of choosing a bottle at the store and the process of opening the bottle and letting it breathe. Occasionally, I'll sit down with a glass of wine at home and I have a really nice Riedel wine glass, and it's big and bulbous, and something about pouring the wine into that glass where you can swirl it around, expose it to the oxygen, release those aromas, and then sipping out of it. You can get your nose far in the glass, you can smell it. That's part of the experience. Now, if I have one of those real inexpensive wine glasses that are short and squat and you can't swirl the wine, it changes the experience dramatically. And you can go so far, if you have friends over, you can decant the wine and do a nice glass decanter, and it, kind of, adds the show and the experience. And that's, I think, a big part of it. So it's more than just the tasting of the grapes and the varietals. But, like you say, the whole experience. And if you're out for a nice meal, having the sommelier come over and present the bottle, open it in front of your table, it can make a real rich experience and enjoyable night out. 

Adam: Well, it sounds good to me, Jeff. Hope everyone gets a chance to, if they're 21, try wine for the first time. Try it and have a really good experience that is safe and in moderation. 

Jeff: Absolutely. And we've got a great class on campus, Introduction to Wine, NDS 291. It's a hard ticket to get, but we'll go on an exploration. I think we tried maybe 60, 80 wines last semester. 

Adam: You can enroll here just for that class. 

Jeff: Absolutely. 

Adam: All right. Thanks so much, Jeff. It was great to talk to you. 

Jeff: Thanks, Adam. 

Adam: Thank you for stopping by The Search Bar. Make sure that you like and subscribe so that you don't have to search for the next episode. 

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